Mar7

Comma Conundrum Continued

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Some of you really got into the comma discussion from my last post. Some others of you are thinking, “Where are the bruise pictures?”

BTW, funny thing about that wannabe black eye post, it earned likes from three CBD dispensaries and one counseling service. LOL. I’m okay, people. Really.

But getting back to the Comma Conundrum…

This isn’t me, but she gets it. (Thanks to Robin Higgins on Pixabay)

Here’s what your votes added up to, including a write-in from my mother via text. And, yes, friends, I do know the elementary comma conjunction rule when what follows is an independent clause.

1a At first there was nothing then a slight tickling as though from fur. TWO VOTES

1b At first there was nothing, then a slight tickling as though from fur. 14 VOTES

2a Even if I told them about the van, I didn’t know where it was headed, besides north. TWO VOTES

2b Even if I told them about the van, I didn’t know where it was headed besides north. 12 VOTES

What did the editor say?

1a and 2b. I will concede we don’t need a comma before “besides north.” But I’m grateful that the majority of you agree with me that the comma makes sense before “then” in the first sentence even though what follows isn’t an independent clause.

Clearly, this particular editor is a stickler for the rules.

I mentioned that Mark, who writes and edits, kindly volunteered to run through the book. Most of what he suggested was in regards to commas too. I did everything he said. Then this editor ADDED commas where neither Mark nor I had them. Observe:

  1. Just relax, and this will be a lot easier.
  2. Take that with you, and keep it safe.
  3. Last night in the chat room, I sort of got into an argument with Apple Pi.
  4. At this point, Isaac would normally leave me to fumble with the graduated cylinders and test tubes.
  5. To me, these Basement Builders were just a bunch of guys trying to one-up each other.

You’re all welcome to give your takes, but here’s what I think of these comma suggestions:

1 maybe but mostly no.

2 no. She’s being a strict rule-follower here, but the comma seems funny and unnecessary.

3 iffy.

4 sure.

5 eh. Okay, I guess.

What say the rest of you?

As I mentioned, 99% of this editor’s changes involved commas. Since some of you may be curious, here’s what else she said:

  1. Blonde has an e on the end for females. I had it that way originally. Then I read that that’s how the French do it, so it wasn’t necessary for us Yanks. I removed it. She said, for females, there’s an e. Fine. I put the e back on.
  2. A character’s thoughts should be present tense. That’s another thing I had originally done, then an editor at a writer’s conference told me thoughts should be in past tense. I changed them to past. This editor says present. I changed them back to present.
  3. She added an exclamation point. An agent told me there should be two exclamation points per book, max. When I mentioned this to the editor, she thought that was silly. “He yelled,” she said, “so there should be an exclamation point.” All right, I’ll use an exclamation point!
Also not me. (Thanks to Pezibear on Pixabay)

Sooooo… Yeah. I guess I just go with the last thing I’m told? It’s getting a little ridiculous. I think we can agree that we can’t all agree.

Am I really going to go through the rest of the book hunting for commas and carefully scrutinizing whether they should be there or not? I don’t think so. I did what Mark suggested, and that’s good enough for me.

There are just going to be some people who disagree with certain usages and some who don’t.

I give up.

😵‍💫
Also not me, but we’re getting warmer.

What would you do?

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77 responses »

  2. The funny thing about commas is that the rules have relaxed so much, most people don’t care unless not using them changes what you intended to say. My opinion:

    #1 is okay. She’s using the “understood” (You) for a subject.
    #2 I don’t agree with.
    #3 yes as it is an introductory clause.
    #4 yes – same as #3
    #5 yes

    I know blonde is female and blond male (per French), but I use blonde for both here in America. Otherwise, it looks like a typo. I write in present tense, so I keep thoughts in present tense. And I am the queen of exclamation points! I have 19 in my current book. I’m an indie author and can do whatever I want. 🙂

    Liked by 4 people

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  3. I actually knew about the blond/blonde thing because, like Maddie, I used to use blonde with an “e” for both. Someone corrected me ages ago, but I can’t remember who. (Comma before “but” there.)

    At this point, I’d just go with what you’re comfortable with. Also like Maddie said, the rules have relaxed quite a bit. My novel was published in 2011, and I reread it for the first time in ages last year. I wasn’t nearly the comma nazi then that I am now.

    Can you share an example of the past tense/present tense flashback? I’m curious about that one.

    Liked by 1 person

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    • It’s “funny” that none of my beta readers were bothered by the past tense thing. Here are some examples:

      Was I supposed to be taking notes? vs
      Am I supposed to be taking notes?

      Is he asking me to use it? Does he want me to be his human guinea pig?
      Is he nuts?

      Those were also in past before because the writer’s conf editor said, “We think in past tense,” which, TBH, I thought was weird but also, she’s the expert, right?

      Liked by 1 person

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    • Thank you for agreeing with me. I do generally agree with all the suggestions presented to me, but sometimes…. errr…. I just don’t know.

      Gratuitous ellipses to be in solidarity with you, Rivergirl. 😉

      Liked by 1 person

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  6. I think all authors should have the right to put this statement right up front in their books: “If you don’t like the punctuation, call my editor. I just did what they said.”

    and in poetry, we don’t use exclamation points — they make things sound too happy …

    Liked by 1 person

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  10. Before I took my copyediting course a few years ago, I thought there were immutable laws about commas, but the course (and being married to an Englishman, who comes from a whole culture that doesn’t use the Oxford comma, ironically) taught me that different style guides for different organizations meant that different rules can apply, depending on your organization or situation (or in your case, your editor and agent). On one hand, it’s freeing to know you can use your own discretion with (some) commas. On the other hand, I like rules.

    Liked by 1 person

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  11. Oh, and have you ever seen the Seinfeld episode where Elaine freaks out when her boyfriend takes down a phone message about her friend having a baby but didn’t end with an exclamation point and they get in this whole argument about it? Hilarious! And a worthy argument to have! (There. I’ve used my limit of two exclamation points.)

    Liked by 1 person

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  12. I’m sorry, but 1a is insane to me without the comma. If I read that in a book, I’d assume that there was a typo and that ‘then’ was supposed to be a ‘than.’ That’s the only way it makes any sense without a comma.

    Liked by 1 person

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  15. Years ago, when editing a text for an international publisher, I got a manuscript with its last page full of commas and the text, “Dear Corrector, here you can take the commas you think I left out. Please, help yourself.”
    As an author I never discussed a comma with my corrector. If I were to discuss with the corrector or editor, then I don’t need them. Anyway, I always taught my students that there are more important issues in a text than commas.
    Klausbernd 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

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  17. I’d do what makes the most sense from the target reader’s viewpoint. That’s usually tied to the story. Genre drives the pre-established expectations of the target audience based on popular books. I’m not a big fan of AI, but the spell and grammar checker with ProWritingAid is one of the best. Still, when you encounter a conundrum, and the reader always gets the last word, or in this case, the choice of comma placement.

    Liked by 1 person

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    • I’m glad to read you say ProWritingAid is one of the best, since that’s what this publisher will be using on my next draft. AI makes me nervous. I will be scrutinizing its edits carefully. It will be interesting to see what IT says about commas!

      Liked by 1 person

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      • I use and recommend PWA’s spell and grammar checker, but I do not use the AI features of rephrasing. The newest PWA tool is out, and it can perform a front-to-back analysis of a full-length novel. You’ll see people rushing to recommend. However, from my experience, I’ve encountered too many incorrect suggestions from the AI bots. As I shared the other day with one support team, I knew enough to call out the mistake, but what about those who don’t have the background?

        Liked by 1 person

      • Ooof. Yeah. It could introduce mistakes to unsuspecting users.

        I hate how often the blue squiggly in word suggests terrible changes sometimes. Like once telling me a .” was too much punctuation and I should get rid of the ” at the end of a quote. Uuum…

        Liked by 1 person

    1. Just relax, and this will be a lot easier.
    2. Take that with you, and keep it safe.
    3. Last night in the chat room, I sort of got into an argument with Apple Pi.
    4. At this point, Isaac would normally leave me to fumble with the graduated cylinders and test tubes.
    5. To me, these Basement Builders were just a bunch of guys trying to one-up each other.

    These are all correct, Betsy.

    #1 and #2 are two independent clauses separated by a conjunction. They need commas. You can omit the comma if the sentences are both very short, so you could leave it off on #2 (borderline).

    #3, #4 and #5 start with introductory clauses, so they need commas.

    *

    Regarding the first two sentences:

    At first there was nothing, then a slight tickling as though from fur.

    Technically, this is the best but still incorrect. “Then” is not a conjunction, so technically, you need a conjunction, probably “and”
    And the second clause isn’t independent so you don’t need a comma before “and then”
    But you do need a comma after “then” when “then” is working as an introductory clause. Therefore:

    At first there was nothing and then, a slight tickling as though from fur.

    *

    Even if I told them about the van, I didn’t know where it was headed, besides north.

    This is correct, but you could replace the comma with an em-dash for greater clarity:

    Even if I told them about the van, I didn’t know where it was headed—besides north.

    I hope you enjoyed this little lesson from the comma queen! Hehe Hope that helps!

    Like

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    • Ten points for thoroughness, Peach! I completely understand the rules for conjunctions. I see that you are a stickler for them, which is fair. For 2. above, it seems more like the person is giving instructions to do two things. I know that doesn’t mean the comma isn’t still technically correct because of the independent clause, but darn if it doesn’t just sound weird and unnecessary.

      For this, how about just no comma in “At first there was nothing then a slight tickling as though from fur”? That would make it technically correct, right? And yet, it still seems weird w/o the comma. What’s your take on the comma for pauses?

      It’s funny that you find this correct, though almost all my beta testers said no to this comma: Even if I told them about the van, I didn’t know where it was headed, besides north. That’s how I had originally written it, but if the masses say no? …

      Liked by 1 person

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      • I’m not exactly a stickler in my writing, but I know the rules and why they work, so ignoring them is intentional.

         “At first there was nothing then a slight tickling as though from fur.”

        No it’s not correct, and it does sound weird without the comma. I do occasionally leave out the conjunction and just use a comma, and though writers doing that more and more, it’s incorrect.

        Commas for pauses – erm. Yes, I’ve done that too, but not often. Make sure the meaning of the sentence doesn’t change, and consider the messiness of adding unnecessary punctuation. If you do it, do it rarely.

        Even if I told them about the van, I didn’t know where it was headed, besides north.

        Read the sentence without any pause at all, and then read it with a short pause for the comma (ten times better, I think). In this case, you should go with what enhances clarity. I’d keep the comma.

        Liked by 1 person

      • This is what’s so irksome to me. As much I very much (too muches? 😉 ) appreciate your expertise and input, you’re contradicting what this publisher’s editor said in those two examples. And, in the second instance, going against the vote of the readers. This is when I throw my hands up and say, “I give up!”

        Like

  22. Oh, and yes, a character’s thoughts should be in first person present tense, but ONLY when in ITALICS. So,

    She stood at the window. She couldn’t imagine what was he doing to the lawnmower.

    I stood at the window. I couldn’t imagine what he was doing to the lawnmower.

    or

    She stood at the window. I can’t imagine what he’s doing to the lawnmower.

    I stood at the window. I couldn’t imagine what he was doing to the lawnmower.

    Like

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  24. Remove ALL of the commas in your five examples. Seriously. The conjunction “and” takes away any need for commas in the first two. In the last three the commas are annoying unnecessary pauses. Let it flow, baby. Did I mention I hate commas? 🙂

    Like

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